Markdown lines 192–342 · Part 2 of 5
[600.0-607.6] Interviewed Bob shortly after finishing the Gateway Program in his laboratory at the Monroe Institute.
[607.6-611.0] What's the difference, Bob, between astral travel and out-of-body?
[611.0-617.3] I have a very quick and simple answer to that.
[617.3-625.2] Astral travel is what we consider an old-fashioned occult kind of word, and we're not really
[625.2-628.4] sure exactly what it means, first of all.
[628.4-640.8] Secondly, from the point of view of the idea of astral travel, has a connotation that bears
[640.8-647.8] a lot of mystery and secrecy about it, and we don't feel we're that mysterious or that
[647.8-648.8] secretive.
[648.8-655.1] So, a friend of mine, a psychologist by the name of Charles Tarte, actually coined the
[655.1-661.7] word the out-of-body experience back in, I believe, it was the early 60s.
[661.7-665.2] You did some work with him at Davis, didn't you, and controlled out-of-body experiences?
[665.2-666.2] Yes.
[666.2-669.1] As a matter of fact, we started not at Davis.
[669.1-677.0] It all began when he was an assistant here in Virginia at the University of Virginia,
[677.0-681.5] and we did some work, not with the University of Virginia necessarily, but while he was
[681.5-682.5] here.
[682.5-687.3] We developed a very close association in that period.
[687.3-693.5] My father, before I came here, who's 86 years old, I told him where I was going, and I gave
[693.5-697.1] him your book, and he said, Son, I'd like you to get back to your body if you get out
[697.1-699.0] of your body while you're in Virginia.
[699.0-700.4] I like you just the way you are.
[700.4-703.5] Last time I left my body, when I tried to get back in, there were six people there
[703.5-704.5] ahead of me.
[704.5-706.5] I thought they were oriennals looking for a home.
[706.5-709.3] Is there ever any danger to the person if they left their body and wouldn't get
[709.3-711.1] back in?
[711.1-713.7] I've never heard of that.
[713.7-721.1] There are so many reasons that one would have to get back into their body that I don't,
[721.1-726.0] in my own experience anyway, feel I've ever had any such problem because there's
[726.0-732.2] a very simple, what we call a panic button system, that in turn, if you use that,
[732.2-734.2] brings you back to your body instantly.
[734.2-739.9] So you don't use it unless you are in a situation where you're in a hurry.
[739.9-747.9] But as far as other people inhabiting that one's body while one is out of it, I have
[747.9-749.5] heard that that does take place.
[749.5-760.6] I've never been concerned about it at all, nor have I been working with anyone who,
[760.6-766.9] in which such a thing even remotely took place as a possibility.
[766.9-768.8] So that's as close as I can give to you.
[768.8-777.4] I do, on the other hand, suspect that where one is into drug use or even, let's say,
[777.4-782.7] unconscious as a result of alcohol or something like that, that that possibility just might
[782.7-784.3] exist.
[784.3-785.3] What leaves the body?
[785.3-790.3] When a person travels out of the body, what leaves?
[790.3-792.3] What leaves?
[792.3-797.7] Well, that's a pretty good and very common question.
[797.7-802.0] One leaves may have many different types of identifications.
[802.0-803.6] You might call it one's soul.
[803.6-809.1] Again, that's sort of an old, old word.
[809.1-815.4] We like to think of it as one's energy self, the self that is composed of a form of not
[815.4-820.5] electrical energy, but another kind of energy that is separate and apart from actually time
[820.5-822.1] and space.
[822.1-827.9] This total you, this original you, is composed of that.
[829.0-836.2] The difference between out of body experience when one is, let's say, asleep or dreaming
[836.2-841.4] and one is awake and volitional, what is that difference?
[841.4-848.5] The only difference as far as that's concerned, I guess we're concerned, is very, very simplistic.
[848.5-857.8] One, the out of body state as we have practiced it and work with it is certainly one that
[857.8-863.2] willful control is used where one decides to go and one decides to come back and one
[863.2-868.6] decides what they're going to do in the out of body state.
[868.6-872.0] Dreams don't usually fall in that classification.
[872.0-878.7] We also take the position that everyone goes out of body during sleep exactly for what
[878.7-881.3] reason again is yet to be determined.
[881.3-887.6] They do this during delta sleep because the overlay of body systems, so that means
[887.6-896.2] your biological systems, including brain waves, is very, very similar to that for one
[896.2-898.5] in an extended out of body state.
[898.5-901.9] Extended meaning quote some distance away from physical body.
[901.9-907.6] There was a fellow named Oliver Fox who wrote a book back in the 20s called Astral Travel.
[907.6-912.8] His technique for astral traveling was to become aware of incongruities and dreams so
[912.8-917.6] that when you're in a dream and you see a bunch of green horses pulling a yellow pumpkin
[917.6-922.3] down the street, you say this is a dream and you wake up in your dream and from that point
[922.3-924.1] you project yourself out on an astral trip.
[924.1-928.6] That would be at a REM sleep stage or not the delta sleep stage.
[928.6-937.5] That's true and we do also recognize that the out of body state does occur during
[937.5-940.0] REM sleep and it's a different category.
[940.0-946.7] That's what we call local out of body, meaning where you are, say, still within this time
[946.7-950.5] space reality system.
[950.5-956.0] The incidentally Fox's method comes into being in another category entirely these days
[956.0-959.2] and that's called lucid dreaming.
[959.2-965.0] The lucid dreaming researchers follow very much a near identical pattern to that one
[965.0-967.5] which you're describing.
[967.5-971.4] Is a lucid dream anything at all like an out of body experience?
[971.4-973.2] No, it isn't.
[973.2-982.1] From our perspective, a lucid dream appears very much to be a semi-disassociated state
[982.1-991.1] but disassociated principally from the various inputs from time space including physical
[991.1-995.2] sensory signals and also a release from time.
[995.2-997.4] Isn't there a release from time in the out of body state also?
[997.4-1004.2] Yes, indeed, but in the out of body state one is totally detached from any physical
[1004.2-1005.2] sensory input.
[1005.2-1010.1] I realize these are common questions to you but I think that the listeners probably have
[1010.1-1015.2] thought of all these things and would like to hear your answer as to remote viewing.
[1015.2-1019.0] Let's say you were to pick up a scene at a distance and it was very real to you
[1019.0-1022.8] and it was very accurate but you were wide awake.
[1022.8-1025.4] How would that compare to lucid dreaming and out of body?
[1025.4-1029.4] Well, they are again three different categories.
[1029.4-1035.6] Remote viewing is a very specialized type of altered state of consciousness is the best
[1035.6-1041.6] way to describe it and it is very much in a near fully conscious state.
[1041.6-1048.9] The system employed there varies a great deal but fundamentally it is what used to
[1048.9-1055.1] be called clairvoyance and remote viewing is an updated scientific word for clairvoyance
[1055.1-1063.2] and they are totally unrelated in terms of the out of body state is going there and being
[1063.2-1070.2] there wherever that location is and the remote viewing stretches something over to that particular
[1070.2-1077.2] target and views it and then removes that ability to perceive.
[1077.2-1082.4] When a person sets out to have a lucid dream, sets out to have an out of body experience
[1082.4-1087.3] or even sets out for remote viewing, sometimes there is success but most of the time there
[1087.3-1088.3] is failure.
[1088.3-1093.4] What factors seem to keep people from succeeding if they are intent?
[1093.4-1098.2] Basically a belief system is probably the real reason why those, the failures take
[1098.2-1099.7] place.
[1099.7-1106.1] We have mostly become aware of the problem of belief systems.
[1106.1-1114.7] These actually in present day psychiatric terms, the belief system that we all have very much
[1114.7-1121.2] controls our destiny and controls our physiological life, controls what we think, our belief system.
[1121.2-1126.8] Alter the belief system and you can indeed make these very dynamic changes including one
[1126.8-1134.2] of the ability to go out of body or to exercise willfulness in a lucid dream.
[1134.2-1137.5] What role do the emotions play in out of body travel?
[1137.5-1141.3] One of the biggest problems in the out of body travel is emotion.
[1141.3-1148.6] If you become emotional, again this is from our perspective, if you become emotional you
[1148.6-1156.2] lose control of your ability to perform in the out of body state and I include excitement
[1156.2-1157.9] as an emotion.
[1157.9-1164.4] You return to the physical because there is a certain overview, detachment that is necessary
[1164.4-1167.6] in order to really achieve the out of body state.
[1167.6-1172.9] We cannot do it successfully, emotionally and I don't know why.
[1172.9-1177.4] I think if I talk to people about things like out of body experiences, almost everybody
[1177.4-1181.5] that I have ever talked to has had one at some time or remembers something of one
[1181.5-1183.9] usually as a childhood experience.
[1183.9-1188.3] It seems to me that if you remember doing something once correctly or doing something once even
[1188.3-1192.3] by accident that your belief shouldn't be that you can't do it because you've already
[1192.3-1195.1] done it and you know it's a possibility.
[1195.1-1200.0] That's very true, Haines, and because of that you think, well that is...
[1200.0-1207.5] Getting to derogate or cause erosion in that original belief system, but it's not quite
[1207.5-1208.5] enough.
[1208.5-1212.3] Once is not quite enough except perhaps when you have a near-death experience, and that
[1212.3-1219.1] is an extreme out-of-body state which certainly does alter considerably one's overview.
[1219.1-1224.7] Do people that have had near-death experiences tend to go on and have out-of-body experiences
[1224.7-1227.0] more easily?
[1227.0-1234.2] Not necessarily because the near-death experience generally has or was created under a time of
[1234.2-1241.6] stress, and under such stress they achieved so much in that one experience that they do
[1241.6-1245.1] not necessarily have the desire to repeat it.
[1245.1-1251.8] They have gained often, and I'm speaking often meaning the majority of such people who
[1251.8-1255.0] have had that near-death experience.
[1255.0-1259.2] And I certainly am not an authority on it.
[1259.2-1265.0] They encounter such a macro experience that that is enough as far as they're concerned.
[1265.0-1266.9] They live on the memory, trade on the memory for years.
[1266.9-1273.0] They live on it, and I have not heard of any who have had a deep desire to recreate
[1273.0-1277.2] the experience, perhaps one or two.
[1277.2-1280.8] The Hindus, and I guess Buddhists, and many people who sit with a quote-unquote living
[1280.8-1287.6] saint feel that the darshan or the induction of the mental state that a person received
[1287.6-1292.5] just by being in the presence of a saint or a spiritually evolved person more or less gives
[1292.5-1294.4] them a jump-start on that same state.
[1294.4-1300.4] And I noticed in your book, B.B. came and jump-started you, if I'm not mistaken, or
[1300.4-1303.4] helped pull you out the first time.
[1303.4-1309.2] What role does induction or help from somebody else have in getting people out?
[1309.2-1314.8] I can't give you a very cogent answer to that, for the simple reason that I don't
[1314.8-1316.0] know how often that is.