Markdown lines 182–352 · Part 2 of 5
right arm which I was holding out in front of me. It was like waking up and then finding oneself already
doing something. I suspect that it would be very much like waking up suddenly while sleepwalking,
becoming conscious and then realizing that you're standing in the front window of your living room
watching the wind blow through the trees in the moonlight. I must also interject here that I was no
longer afraid the intense fear that I had momentarily felt while I was falling through the restaurant door
was completely gone. In fact, I was so comfortable that I remember quietly chuckling to myself that my
initial fear was only a stupid reaction. The first interesting thing that I noticed is that it was gently
raining, but I was not getting wet. In fact, the small droplets of water were hitting my arm and I could
feel them doing so. But then they would slide through my arm and fall into the street at my feet. Yes,
that's precisely what I said slide through my arm. The excitement was overwhelming. And I felt that I
should show someone else what was going on to share the wonderment of it. I looked at my clothes,
which in my perception were exactly the ones that I had been wearing and they were not getting wet
either. It was at this time while looking down that I noticed that I couldn't see my feet. It was also when I
realized that something else was happening. A major event was going on and I was part of it. My first
intent was to run to the restaurant and to tell my friends tell anybody. It was that thought which gently
propelled me forward toward the crowd which had begun to gather at the front door of the restaurant, I
noticed that I was drifting and not walking, which also added to my Wonderman when I stopped my
eyes settled on a body lying half in and half out of the gutter by the front door. The shock of what I saw
sent a huge shutter through my entire being lying there in the street was my body face up with eyes and
mouth open. The preceding was an excerpt from the book mind trick It's a strange tale of paranormal
experiences had by what most would consider to be a very normal guy here in the studio with me today
is Joseph mcmoneagle. He's a retired intelligence officer and author and researcher associated with
the cognitive sciences lab.
Mark Certo 14:58
That's the same lab that discovered remote viewing. Do I have that correct? Joe? That's correct. As a
result of your near death experiences, you began to have spontaneous out of body and psychic
experiences. You've been engaged for some time in something called Scientific remote viewing, would
you tell us what that is? Exactly?
Joe McMoneagle 15:17
Well, actually, we don't, we don't refer to it as scientific remote viewing, we refer to it as anomalous
cognition in our lab. Remote viewing is the is a specific protocol that was designed in the early 70s at
Stanford Research Institute International. And what it what it means actually is the ability of someone to
perceive a person place event, or thing that's remote from them, and to which they have no access, or
they're totally blind to. for all intensive purposes, that means psychic functioning under strict, a strict
protocol or scientific control.
Mark Certo 16:00
You call that the outbound or experiments in your book mine track, right?
Joe McMoneagle 16:04
There's, there's actually a number of different experiments, the original experiments were outbound, or
that's where they, they would actually send someone to the target site.
Mark Certo 16:13
So how did those experiments work exactly.
Joe McMoneagle 16:16
Essentially, what they would do is put together a random pool of targets in the local San Francisco Bay
area. They entailed sort of standalone places that were unique. Within a 30 mile 40 mile radius of the
lab, they would put these locations in envelopes, and then randomly number those envelopes. So that
they had a constant pool of anywhere from 200 to 300 possible locations, they would generate a
random number prior to an experiment. And the outbound or person would pull that envelope from the
safe and depart the, the lab, they drive around for about a half an hour and then pull off in traffic and,
and open the envelope to find out where they were supposed to go. The remote viewer and the
scientists Meanwhile, our interviewer would then relocate to a windowless room on the third floor of the
radio physics lab at SRI. And at a precise time when we knew that outbound or would be at the target
location, the remote viewer would then try to draw and talk or describe the location, the outbound or
was at when the outbound or would return, then we would all go to the target location to see what was
gotten right,
Mark Certo 17:38
what was going wrong, or how successful were you at this.
Joe McMoneagle 17:41
My first six remote viewings back in 1978 were very successful. I was the first subject to head five for
six first place matches.
Mark Certo 17:53
Do you kind of feel like you're looking through the eyes of the person who you would call the outbound?
18:00
No, not actually, what's what's really going on - There's a misconception a lot of people think that it's
probably telepathy that's operating because of the outbound. But in reality, the information's probably
coming in through clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairsentience, presentiment, that means what you're
about to see, you see, that sort of thing, and telepathy. The combination of all these inputs produces
information about the target. We we don't know where exactly the information comes from, but it
probably comes from the target. past present future, it also comes from the outbound or the perceptions
of the remote viewer are very complex. Usually, the target, the information on the target is actually
delivered very, very rapidly, in a matter of just a few seconds. It's then very fragmented in the remote
viewer is to take those fragments and sort of piece them together in some logical format that makes
sense.
Mark Certo 19:06
And is that part of the scientific process? Well, the
Joe McMoneagle 19:09
the scientific process of remote viewing the protocol, there's a lot well, there's a lot of requirements
involved with it. One is that the remote viewer and whoever the interviewer is in the room with the
remote viewer have to be totally blind to the target, meaning they can't have any possibility of knowing
what the target is. The target itself, the person who selects the targets or controls the target pool cannot
participate in any of the other parts of the experiment. When the information is produced, the person
who evaluates or judges the material against the actual target is not allowed to be participant any other
portion of the the experiment. This holds true for both research as well as training type targets
applicants targets may be somewhat different in that you own the only requirement there aside from
following the protocol that I've just specified is you need to ensure that there is a random diversity in the
in the,
Mark Certo 20:15
the target. And what's an applications target. For instance?
Joe McMoneagle 20:19
Well, for instance, if within Stargate, the program that I was in the military, the application store, it could
be anything from targeting a prototype armored vehicle for a NATO country to targeting an envelope
that's being passed off at a council at party. So the range of possibilities was great enough that there
was no reason to usually design a pool to hide the target in so that there would be, you know, no
preconceived notion of what the target is. And all
Mark Certo 20:54
of this is in an attempt to make sure that the information is totally clean,
Joe McMoneagle 20:57
right. The idea there's, there's really two reasons why you want that to happen. Primarily, it's to
guarantee that the information is psychic. What a lot of people don't understand is, for instance, if the
monitor knows something about the target, and they're sitting in the room with a remote viewer, they
they are speaking even though they may not speak verbally, they're speaking certainly through
nonverbal signals, you know how the person shifts in a chair or scratches their head or pulls the
earlobe, all those things say something about the correctness of the wrongness of the information. So,
if the monitor is in bind, then you may be delivering information to the remote viewer and other ways
other than psychic. The second most important reason is once usually missed by people, is the remote
viewer has to know that they have this capacity to be psychic. In other words, they have to get from the
I believe I'm psychic to that I know I am. And the only way to do that is to remove all doubt.
unequivocably from the from the process so that when the remote viewer turns out to be right, they're
absolutely sure that it was information they got psychically and not through some other means.
Mark Certo 22:13
That's fascinating. You mentioned Stargate and I want to talk a little bit more about that you've gone
public with all of this work that you did for the military as a quote unquote, psychic spy. I recently saw
you on Ted Koppel Nightline, along with Dr. Edwin C. Mei who ran the remote viewing he was the
research head for the remote viewing program. The military got involved in psychic phenomenon. How
did all that get started?
Joe McMoneagle 22:41
Well, it actually started as a result of some earlier things that were done at SRI International. There was
some work done in the early 70s 1972 timeframe with a man man by the name of Ingo Swann and
another psychic by the name of Pat price. This was a this was worked on under the the auspices of the
CIA, as a result of some of the targeting that they did they, they were very impressed by the fact that so
much information could be produced on areas deep within the then Soviet Union, or on classified
facilities that we in fact control. This impressed the number of people within the DOD. And so in the mid
to late 70s, they decided that the army decided that maybe this is something that they should look at
from an intelligence standpoint. So a program was initiated to locate four or five psychic people within
the Army. And you being one of them, of course, exactly, and expose them to remote viewing and see if
an applications could be developed for collecting intelligence
Mark Certo 24:02
itself. Phenomenal. How exactly did you go about choosing targets within say, the Soviet Union? Was it
that using the same protocols described before? Were they still testing at that point in time? Or were
they into the Applications point,
Joe McMoneagle 24:16
initially in 1978, and when we first started, we were doing training. So we had training target, we had
target pool setup to do training, where we had actually hundreds of targets in a pool that we would
randomly select from in the local area. And we were targeting things like McDonald's gas stations,
drugstores, you know, seeing what we could do in terms of information production. We started doing
proof in principle targets with some army specific targets. But what happened in the middle of our
training is we had Did the Iranian hostage scenario developing and they had, of course, no means of
obtaining information on the inside of the compound. So they decided that maybe we ought to try this
remote viewing thing, it turned out to work better than they expected. As a result, we were deluged with
request on targeting for many of the government intelligence services, specifically for targets that were
their hardest targets or the targets for which they had dead ends they couldn't get answers to,
Mark Certo 25:36
and this is the CIA, mostly, the CIA
Joe McMoneagle 25:40
probably comprised about 5% of the actual targets. We, at the time, started out in support of the the
army. And that soon became that spread through all the DoD elements. We were providing them